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Saturday November 21, 2009

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I would like to start out that I have shot guns in a controlled environment and was taught by a police officer/ teacher, what the different types of guns are (i.e. double vs single action, semi vs fully auto), and how to properly handle a gun (i.e. never ever look down the barrel and always assume it is loaded. My experience was very gratifying (shooting guns at targets was very fun) and I am fully for teaching as many people how to properly shoot and handle a firearm. I am also an advocate for hunting, as it is very necassary for population control to reduce starvation and car/deer accidents, and hunters are usually very good at using the meat that they kill, although I haven't and probably won't ever go hunting myself.

My issue with the CPL laws is not an issue of not trusting the majority of owners to be responsible. My issue is the what if's of a situation. First I have not seen any proof, for or against, any increase or decrease in crimes if this law were to go through. Second, I worry about confusion if the police come and see 2 people or more with leathal weapons and how much time it might take to determine who is the "bad" guy. And the final issue I have, is that I believe that although the cpl training might be diligent, I still am unsure of whether or not it properly readies someone to use leathal force against another human being. I say this only because I have heard of many soldiers and police officers who have rightfully had to execute someone, have a difficult time living with this fact.

It is a very serious issue that I believe needs to be thought out completely. Please don't throw out all concerns as pure leftist sissyism against gun use.

based on the venom in alot of comments in the daily ( although interestingly not so much this thread), which is presumbly read by a more thoughtful audience than the wider public, it strikes me that alot of people with legal firearms who clearly are capable of despising each other is one step away from a move toward de facto if not legalized dueling.......

personally i find that kind of appealing at times, but it's probably not all that good an idea for the social order....

so let's all dial back the rhetoric , whether its rush limbaughniaks, glenn beckoids or the equally obnoxious nutters on the far left, like A2's own blaine coleman(iac ) and his jew baiting friends-- the shmucks who happily caused the MSA to change its regs about community commentary...whoops! i did it myself!

p.s "grad student with cpl...dont you mean "claims'...not "clams"?

The only thing "not well thought out" is the article as the previous commentors have already pointed out. I dearly hope that this will be taken as a learning experience to do some research and actually READ the legislation and its effects before openning mouth and inserting foot.

this article is totally incorrect
having laws will not stop bad guys from coming on a campus and shooting if they wanted to.
are some people so stupid that they think a criminal who is going to rob someone will see a "no gun" sign and think " o i cant do this here" and stop.......... NO that will not happen, common sense people
its smart to let law abiding citizens who already have a CPL to carry on campus. to defend them self

and dont forget the 11 campuses who have a concealed carry law so students can carry and there have been no gun related incidents since then for over 130 combined semesters.

Crazy people can go on shooting rampages anywhere but that is not a reason to try to keep guns out of sensitive places.

Today's horrible news was about a massacre of 12 people on an army base at Fort Hood. Was the problem there that there weren't enough guns around? No. It was a friggin' army base. Was the problem there that the army base was a gun-free zone? No.

I am sick and tired of hearing gun fanatics say that gun-free zones are the problem and more guns are the answer.

Mass shootings in schools make news because they are very rare. Domestic violence, suicides, armed robbery, murder, and gang violence are, on the other hand, extremely common. That is what handguns are good for.

We all need to work for less violence in our society and world and more guns in more sensitive places is NOT the answer.

I agree rapes, robbery and beating are all more common than a active shooter. They are also all good reasons why if some one goes though the proper training, background checks and state licensing they should be able to carry on campus. And as you said they already happen campus despite the feel good but none enforceable no guns on campus ordinance.

None of the soldiers unfortunately at the base were armed and federal property is a no carry zone for CPL holder also. Bases also have good security yet it still happened. You can't tell me if the military trained soldiers there had their gun that this guy would have killed or hurt so many people.

Once again how is defending ones life against a criminal trying to kill you violent? In ideal world people would not hurt others but we live in this world where people do hurt others with fist, knifes, bats, guns or any thing they can get their evil hands on. What forms of self-defense does not offend you? I am sorry but being able to save ones life is a basic human right!

Don't like guns don’t own one but don't stop people from the most effect means of self-defense.

In MI 1:30 adults 21 and older has a CPL. So if you ever leave campus you have been around some one with a CPL and never knew it or was hurt by them. Mean while on campus only people with guns are the criminals.

For most people that oppose this change in the law it comes down this they don’t like guns and don’t want you to be able to save your own life. How wrong it is force ones phobia on other costing them their lives.

Opponents of Michigan’s concealed carry law employed this same sort of alarmist rhetoric – Cassandra-esque prophecies about blood in the streets – agitating against the legislation that created it. Police Chiefs from various municipalities warned at the time that if citizens could get carry permits without their say-so, Wild West lawlessness would follow just a surely as night follows day. The streets would become free-fire zones. Corpses would stack up like cord wood. Bo-o-o-o!

More than a decade later, it’s apparent the dire predictions of liberal opponents of gun rights weren’t just mistaken in scope or scale, the function of some misplaced decimal point. The scare tactics they were furiously peddling have been proven utterly & completely bogus – partisan fiction.

I fully appreciate the rose colored glasses that perceive UM’s campus as an extra-special place – magical, even. But exempt from (select portions of) the Bill of Rights? No one wields that authority, save perhaps the Supreme Court. No one should wield that power, least of all our Board of Regents.

Glad to see the comments are again smarter then the article.

The whole premise of this article relies on the belief that people who legally carry concealed handguns are dangerous. All of the arguments thrive on people's unjustified fear and ignorance of state law and concealed carry statics. There are already guns on campus, being brought by criminals. It's time to give the law abiding citizens of this country a way to defend themselves.
And if more guns causes more violence, why should the police carry guns?

Actually, if this bill passed, places like dorms, the football stadium, and classrooms would NOT still have complete weapons bans. The concealed pistol gun free zones only ban concealed pistols. You could openly carry a pistol to a college football game if this passed and the college couldn't do diddly about it, if you have concealed pistol license. Good idea?

An any 18 year old with a hunting rifle or handgun could keep it in their dorm room. There's no law stopping that if colleges can't have their own ordinances. You don't need to be 21 or have a concealed pistol to keep at gun at your home.

How exactly is it "vigilantism" when it is already LEGAL to defend yourself and others with your personal firearm?

Generally I'm a pretty left-ish person when it comes to gun control, but the claims this article makes are just silly. As previous commenters have pointed out, this law does nothing about crowded, indoor areas. In essence, the only place I could go with my gun after this that I couldn't before would be the Diag. Whoop tee doo. And if I'm on the Diag, fair odds are I'm going to class or visiting a friend or going drinking, all situations which preclude gun-carrying in the first place.

The fact is, the Diag is outdoors, public space, and should be treated as such. If the University won't shut down the fire-and-brimstone preachers on the Diag that harass their students, then what grounds do they have to treat the space as their private property? This trend of enforcement is worrying, especially including the campus smoking ban under consideration. The university is essentially trying to tell us that outdoors isn't outdoors any more, and the Diag and parking lots somehow need special rules just because of who owns the land. It is absurd, it is irresponsible, and the University needs to seriously reconsider the image this projects.

This editorial runs on the opinion that just because the "gun-free" label is attached to a campus, that it is less likely to have guns within it in the hands of criminals. Although anecdotal, I know that, for a few hundred dollars and a couple of phone calls, I have the ability to obtain an illegal firearm. With 30,000+ students living on and off campus, and a large amount of university employees, there is surely a decent amount of illegal gun ownership, and at least some of those guns are on campus or carried on campus illegally. It would be very irresponsible to say that just because the law is there that there is less illegal, with emphasis on the word illegal, ownership/carrying of guns, as there isn't any way to know which of the students around campus have a gun. The point is, guns already exist on campus, we simply have no way of knowing about it. If a student snaps and wants to go on a shooting rampage, he would definitely be able to obtain a firearm, illegally if necessary (and under 21). He isn't going to follow some "anti-gun" law if he is dead-set on hurting innocent civilians. The law serves no purpose other than not allowing legal carriers to carry a firearm on the Diag, while he is still allowed to carry his firearm in his vehicle or on the sidewalk next to Noodles and Company. If he had the intent of killing somebody, an arbitrary line isn't going to stop him.

There is no logical reason to make it illegal to carry a firearm on outdoor property, as the only people that are affected by this are legally licensed firearm carriers. Since the law still wouldn't allow carriers to go into classrooms (buildings), dormitories, or other sensitive areas, it wouldn't lead to more guns indoors. The only thing that would happen is that visitors (likely parents) would be able to keep their legally owned gun while in, say, a parking lot or other outdoor area that is owned by the university. Legalizing something that is legal in every other public outdoor area won't increase gun ownership, and won't substantially increase the amount of firearms on campus from day-to-day. It only concerns licensed gun owners, who have gone through the legal process to obtain a firearm and are law-abiding citizens.

Let me put this another way. Were I 21 and a licensed owner, I could carry a gun while walking on State Street, say, in Ann Arbor. I can carry it anywhere on public property (except for classrooms). I'm also legally allowed to keep my firearm on public school property while dropping a child off. However, just because I'm walking on State Street and pass some arbitrary line, I'm suddenly made a criminal, even though I'm still on state-owned property? That seems like a large fallacy to me.

The twelve college campuses that allow legal concealed carrying of firearms (all public colleges in the state of Utah, Colorado State University, and Blue Ridge Community College in Virginia) have seen absolutely no increase of gun mishaps, alcohol-related gun injury, or anything of the like since becoming carry-legal.

No substantial evidence has been provided by anyone opposed to this new legislation that making a campus gun free has limited the number of illegal firearms on campus. An unknown number of students illegally have firearms in their dorm rooms, and are carrying them on campus. There is no way to stop them, and that point is null because the only ones that should be worried about are the ones that don't have a firearm but obtain one right when they snap. The ones that snap are likely to not be visiting gun owners, but students or teachers that are here everyday. The only way to fix that would be to disband the university entirely, as there will always be humans that snap, and there will always be a way to illegally obtain a firearm. Restrictions on legal ownership only work to undermine liberty.

Students for Concealed Carry on Campus Endorses Michigan House Bill 5474
October 21st, 2009

LANSING, October 21, 2009 – The leading advocate in the fight for extending self-defense rights to college campuses endorsed Michigan Bill 5474 on Wednesday. The bill, introduced by Rep. Wayne Schmidt and supported by 25 co-sponsors, clarifies the authority of college campuses in Michigan to regulate the rights of its members.

“All this does is tell colleges they can’t deprive a citizen of the state-recognized right to self-defense,” said David Burnett, a spokesman for Students for Concealed Carry on Campus. “It means if the state says it’s okay to carry a gun for your own protection, the college can’t step in and say you can’t.”

Students for Concealed Carry on Campus (www.ConcealedCampus.org) has over 41,000 supporters and has prompted legislation in more than 20 states in the past two years.

Michigan State University, the premiere college in the state, recently revised its policy to comply with the law after conflicts with law enforcement refusing to cite citizens for lawful possession of firearms on campus. The state presently allows citizens over 21 to carry a concealed firearm if they have no prior record of felony convictions, drug or alcohol abuse, or mental illness, and have passed a gun safety course.

Opponents of the bill claim allowing concealed carry everywhere on campus would increase the likelihood of campus violence. However, the bill would not alter current state law, which prohibits concealed carry on dormitories, stadiums and classrooms. Colleges in Utah and Colorado already allow concealed carry on campus, with no reported surge in violence, and schools in Arizona and South Carolina which recently began allowing citizens to keep firearms in locked cars have not reported an increase in confrontations.

“Whether facing madman with a gun on campus, or a lone female student on her way back from the library, students, faculty or staff of a college who are authorized by the state to carry shouldn’t be deprived of that right just because they’re on campus,” said Burnett.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

CONTACT

Students for Concealed Carry on Campus

David Burnett – Director of Public Relations

David.Burnett@concealedcampus.org

http://www.ConcealedCampus.com

“Students shouldn’t have to walk to class or walk through campus at night wondering whether or not the people around them are carrying dangerous weapons. And the presence of alcohol in college life means that fights can easily escalate into gun violence and fatal injuries when firearms are present.”

1) 220,000 people are licensed by this state to carry a handgun. They went though background check and training as required by state law. So unless you never leave campus you have been round law-abiding citizen “carrying dangerous weapons”. (note there nothing dangerous about gun they are just chucks of steel only person using them is dangerous) Besides that point since armed robbers and rapes happing on campus you better be worrying about criminal “carrying dangerous weapons” despite the feel good band the campus has.
2) Under MI law you can’t drink and carry. When my friends and I were in college and want to drink we left our carry guns at home.
3) Note MSU already change campus police to about what this bill says this summer. No reports of problems. Utah you can even carry into class room for several years now and no problems again. So where are the statics and research you make these clams on?

“Students shouldn’t have to walk to class or walk through campus at night wondering whether or not the people around them are carrying dangerous weapons. And the presence of alcohol in college life means that fights can easily escalate into gun violence and fatal injuries when firearms are present.”

1) 220,000 people are licensed by this state to carry a handgun. They went though background check and training as required by state law. So unless you never leave campus you have been round law-abiding citizen “carrying dangerous weapons”. (note there nothing dangerous about gun they are just chucks of steel only person using them is dangerous) Besides that point since armed robbers and rapes happing on campus you better be worrying about criminal “carrying dangerous weapons” despite the feel good band the campus has.
2) Under MI law you can’t drink and carry. When my friends and I were in college and want to drink we left our carry guns at home.
3) Note MSU already change campus police to about what this bill says this summer. No reports of problems. Utah you can even carry into class room for several years now and no problems again. So where are the statics and research you make these clams on?

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